Tuesday, October 31, 2006

Horrifying Words

It was the day before Halloween. I had just left the department office and was about to walk out of the building to go home. My head was filled with grad student thoughts (funding applications, reading to do, food). Two young women came up behind me, mid-conversation. One of them uttered words that made me shudder visibly:

"I doesn't matter whether you're a B student or a C student. It's all the same degree in the end."

I have always had a vague sense that such attitudes existed. But to hear them uttered so confidently, in a building full of professors, somehow shocked me so much that I actually whirled around and stared at her. Part of me wanted to see what such a student looks like, and part of me really wanted to confirm that this wasn't one of my own students.

Why did this statement horrify me so much? Partly, it's because it's so foreign to me. I've been so sheltered. I really was the sort of student who felt all kinds of angst over receiving a B. It didn't matter if the class had little bearing on my future career; I tried just as hard in Physics and Phys Ed as I did in History. I can understand struggling with a subject and getting middling or low grades. I can understand being so overwhelmed by all your schoolwork, or by having to work to put yourself through University, that you're just thrilled to pass. But this attitude? At an institution where the "C" grade ranges all the way down to 55%? I'm still getter shivers just thinking about it.

I tried to comfort myself by imagining that the student who uttered those words was consoling the other student, who had just received a bad mark on something. Maybe she meant "Chin up! You're passing, and you'll still get your degree!" But I really doubt that, because her next words were, "But I know that I'm cynical."
She got me thinking. I ask you: is it all the same? Yes, a degree is still a degree. But what if you need a reference letter from a professor and you were the sort of student who only cared that you not fail? What if you try to get into a field where they ask for your transcripts? What if it ever turns out that you need some graduate training?


Am I just being overly optimistic, when I'm so put off by such comments?

12 comments:

Matt said...

I suppose it depends where you're coming from, Maryanne. As you know, I've gone through my degree, am currently working full time in using it, and am also pursuing a masters at the same time.

I've always strove to do well in my classes, because it's important to me, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to the view that, in some cases, the marks don't really matter.

In my field, at any rate, there's so much they simply do not teach in university, and so much of what they do teach is unimportant or irrelevant.

I've also encountered numberous cases where someone does really mark-wise due to an ability to memorize material short-term, but that same person later demonstrates a lack of comprehension of the material. Marks do not correlate with learning.

So, in some fields, your marks have little to do with what you learned, and has little bearing on your future, especially past your first job.

I suppose this is something of a devil's advocate position, as I pretty much always tried my best in school, but I can definitely see where such attitudes arise.

Anonymous said...

The truth about marks: they can't get you a job. I think she's kind of right, in a lot of ways. You're more likely to do well in life if you're the type of person who is involved in a lot of extracurricular activities than if you devoted yourself entirely to school. I'm learning this the hard way.

arimich said...

I tell my kids that the important thing is that they are able to do well in their chosen profession. In any area, be it arts or engineering, people will probably be more concerned with their actual ability to do the job rather than their university marks. I do think, however, that grades can be an indicator of proficience, and they also say something about character and integrity. A person who works at success in every area is going to be more attractive to employers than someone who slacks off.

Anonymous said...

While I myself can't stand that attitude (I find value in the process of learning and effort, as do you), I have to recognize that this young woman has different goals than I do-- or than you do. She's a not a graduate student learning for the sake of learning; she's a student in college because that's what her parents likely expected of her, and she expects that she's just going through the paces so that she can qualify for a job. It's the means to an end for her.

But that's the status of education here and I'm guessing in Canada as well-- prepare students for the world of work. Make them competent enough to do their job. And that's it. So what's the point of investing the energy and time into her classes if it doesn't make a difference in the job world?

roger said...

If there's one thing I hate, it's learning. Just kidding. But I have said this a number of times as in my line of work it's true. And I'm lazy. These are the things lazy people tell themselves.

Life of Turner said...

Try the College of Education, with its curves down and attempts to keep things as standard as possible (multiple choice tests). I guess the fact that we do not get taught a class on assessment and evaluation until AFTER our internship shows how much this college values grades.
That rant aside, I am not opposed to the idea of the abolishment of grades in some parts of university, as long as they are replaced with a functional system. My suggestion would be a "pass-fail" system in which the standard is set relatively high in higher levels of a discipline. Then again, I cannot think of the last time that I was at risk (real risk, anyway) of getting below a 70 in a course because of anything but my own stupidity, so I am speaking from a privileged position. The point? Marks are silly, but so is disregarding them entirely in a society that values them. I just think our educational system might consider how we deal with marks.

Derek out.

Anonymous said...

Well Maryanne, I hate to burst the bubble, but the student is totally correct. As you know I work in an area that employs many people with degrees. What you know or how good you are is irrelevant. That little piece of paper is all that counts. This is especially true as your career goes on. After a couple of years away from the University, you will never be asked for marks again. In fact it may even be difficult to ask for them as an employer. Scary that the engineer that is designing that bridge may have only recieved a 55 in calculus but that is the real world. I also know though that there are some people who graduated with low marks but on the other hand are some of the most competant and intelligent people that I know. If a person meets all of the requirement they get the degree. If they do very well they may get an Honours degree or go onto a masters or Phd. However the basic undergrad degree is the same.

Anonymous said...

As a grad student and aspiring academic, I actually agree with that student. Who really gives a damn about A, B, or C - that is merely a measure of whether a student did what the instructor told them to do, which does NOT necessarily correlate to learning.
At my undergrad institution, grades were given for courses but they were rarely revealed to students unless they were in danger of not passing the course. The point was to encourage focusing on the material and one's engagement with it. A similar process happens in the teaching I do at my grad institution and while it doesn't entirely do away with grinds - students who are all about the good grade instead of the material - it certainly makes them more tolerable.

Anonymous due to f***ing beta.

Anonymous said...

In our field (CS) it does make a difference. It's a meritocratic area and, to the extent grades reflect merit, they count.

Anonymous said...

Grades matter in engineering and CS. It's impossible to get a co-op position while a student or a job after graduation at most large companies, because they require a 3.0 to 3.5 GPA.

Anonymous said...

To chime in with the rest, I'd have to say I think it matters on the field. As someone who comes from a family of PILOTS, I certainly HOPE that grades mattered to them. (Most were Aeronautical Science majors.)

On the other hand, I really think that most students do not give two hoots about learning for the sake of learning. They want to memorize whatever they need to in order to get a decent grade on exams, and then erase their brain clear to make room for next semester's "pile o' learnin' facts".

Now I'm the one who's cynical.

Anonymous said...

Oh, good gravy! Did I just type it "matters on the field"? Someone shoot me. I meant it DEPENDS on the field. Clearly, grading so many papers has had a negative effect on me.